Elton's Late Rock Attempts

[BiteUrLip]

I decided to start an own thread for this.

What do you think about Elton's rock attempts after MIE album? I think the general opinion is that most of those songs are weaker than other material in the albums. Also, they didn't become singles. Elton gave each one a small amount of live performances, but dropped them out quite soon.

What I'm going after with this is that do you think the rock attempts were better, equal or worse when compared to the other material?

[BiteUrLip]

I start myself - I place them in between equal or worse than other album tracks. I never liked "The Wasteland" very much, but on the other hand "Just Like Noah's Ark" is one of my very favorites from TC&TK. So that song is one of the winners, but it's the only song that goes to the "better songs from an album" category. There are much more that go in the middle, such as "Monkey Suit", and then some that are in the worse category.

[rocketman]

Yes, we had been discussing this is the thread about Runaway Train in the Song Of The Day, but it's better to spin it off into a thread all its own.

I think the rock songs after MIE are generally quite good. The problem is, there aren't enough of them. As I commented before, there is barely an album's worth of songs over the span of six studio albums in between MIE and WCN (I didn't count El Dorado, which was much the same as the other records, with just one true rock song, 16th Century Man, plus a couple that were up-tempo for the most part, like El Dorado and Trust Me).

I'll list them this way:

Wicked Dreams - one of the better songs on TBP.
The Wasteland - middle of the pack (average) on SFTWC
The Cat - average on Peachtree, but the best of the bunch on the live DVD
Noah's Ark - middle of the pack on C&K, but excellent lyrics
Monkey Suit - a bit above average on The Union
Mexican Vacation - well below average on The Diving Board album

As for WCN, the title song excels, Looking Up hold its own (average), Guilty Pleasure and England and America are well below average.

So overall for me, his rock songs fare pretty well, but they're not close to his 70's rock songs that permeated albums especially from Honky Chateau through Blue Moves.

Interestingly, Elton's earlier albums (Empty Sky through Madman) did not feature many rock songs either. Maybe in that sense, Elton did come full circle in the 2000's, since the pacing of the albums is somewhat similar to his very early material, with a lot of slow-starting piano-driven melodies that featured some variance in tempo or built to a crescendo.

[dougs]

Good question BiteUrLip.

Elton's rock songs after MADE IN ENGLAND:

1. "Wicked Dreams" from THE BIG PICTURE:
* this is probably my favourite of the few rock-oriented songs since 1995
* really like EJ's upbeat piano solo in this one / good tempo / more of a pop-rock tune

2. "The Wasteland" from SONGS FROM THE WEST COAST:
* a surprisingly bluesy number from Elton
* good raw sound to it / good piano and guitar but one that doesn't benefit from repeated playing for me

3. "They Call Her The Cat" from RREACHTREE ROAD:
* horns add to the feel of the song but one that I rarely listen to
* not aided by a scratchy vocal which is difficult to understand / stylistically dated sound which fit the album / a bit flat production-wise to me

4. Noah's Ark from CAPTAIN AND THE KID:
* good intro. / some good piano / not the strongest melody / decent organ and guitar solo / interesting outro with EJ's dog barking
* again, very hard to interpret the lyrics with Elton's vocals / I rarely play this one either

5. "Hey Ahab" from THE UNION:
- good upbeat piano-based song / good building song / probably one of my 2 or 3 favourite upbeat EJ songs after "Wicked Dreams"
- studio version much slower than concert renditions (not sure which I prefer these days) / vocals are still hard to interpret / choir adds energy

6. "Wonderful Crazy Night" from WONDERFUL CRAZY NIGHT:
- good intro / verse tempo & music is fine / chorus is where the songs falls flat to me / good piano
- instrumentally this almost comes across as a demo with guitars, strings or whatever missing

7. "Looking Up" from WONDERFUL CRAZY NIGHT:
- a decent pop song / good piano / nothing stylistically new
- predictable structure with guitar solo right where it always is

8. "Guilty Pleasure" from WONDERFUL CRAZY NIGHT:
- great intro with hand-clapping / nice quick tempo / guitars seem mixed too low / interesting anti-climatic ending
- this one has some fresh air about it / not a typical sounding EJ song which shows risk-taking and growth / I like this one

9. "England and America" from WONDERFUL CRAZY NIGHT:
- another familiar rhythm resulting in a sense of "I have heard this all before" / some good guitar work
- maybe Davey's best rock guitar on record in years / surprised that this was only a "bonus" track

Of all of these songs, the ones I still play are "Wicked Dreams" and "Hey Ahab" and "Guilty Pleasures" and sometimes but not too often "England and America."  The others lack an originality or energy and, in some cases, I can't understand what Elton is singing.  Most of these really don't rock but are up-tempo or pop songs.  A song like "Street Kids" from ROCK OF THE WESTIES, in contrast, rocks and it works big time;  I still listen to it all the time.  Generally speaking the rock songs that EJ has done since MADE IN ENGLAND are usually not my favourites on the respective albums.  WONDERFUL CRAZY NIGHT was at least an attempt to venture back into writing some pop-rock songs and Elton had some success doing it.

Doug





 

[latitude]

Just quickly---my favorite of all of these is 'Guilty Pleasure'. To me it's the best rock song in *years*. Nobody will agree with me, but that one really winds me up and I love everything about it!

[dougs]

rocketman:

Good observation on EJ coming full circle;  starting & ending recording career with few rock-oriented songs. I have to admit I do love the title track from EMPTY SKY. A song like "The Cage" from ELTON JOHN could have rocked had it included more guitars - the piano was really good.  "Can I Put You On" rocked in a way.  But he certainly did have few rock songs until Davey joined the band full time in 1972.

Looking at your list, both you and I go back to THE BIG PICTURE and "Wicked Dreams" to find a rock-oriented song that was one of the album's better songs.

Doug

[dougs]

Latitude:

You do have a bit of company with "Guilty Pleasure."  A good song - just wish the guitars were higher in the mix.  Nice to see EJ push the envelope a bit.

rocketman:

Speaking of pushing the envelope, I, too, really like "Trust Me" off of THE ROAD TO EL DORADO.  Always like it when Elton pushes himself into new music territories.

Doug

[rocketman]

Jun 19, 2018 21:20:39 GMT dougs said:

rocketman:

Good observation on EJ coming full circle;  starting & ending recording career with few rock-oriented songs. I have to admit I do love the title track from EMPTY SKY. A song like "The Cage" from ELTON JOHN could have rocked had it included more guitars - the piano was really good.  "Can I Put You On" rocked in a way.  But he certainly did have few rock songs until Davey joined the band full time in 1972.

Looking at your list, both you and I go back to THE BIG PICTURE and "Wicked Dreams" to find a rock-oriented song that was one of the album's better songs.

Doug

Thanks DougS, I appreciate your breakdown on these songs.

Bite, I think I forgot to include other songs from The Union, so:

If It Wasn't For Bad - barely uptempo, but one of the better songs on The Union (a Russell composition)

Hey Ahab - I agree with Doug; slow build, good song. Piano sound is buried a bit too much. I think there was room here for a much more punctuated sound with the two pianos. Still, one of the better songs on the album.

Hearts Have Turned To Stone - Another Russell composition; the best song on the record, a jaunty beat with good backing vocals and a very competent vocal by Leon (his somewhat scratchy voice adds bite).

A Dream Come True - Another jumpy beat, catchy melody, one of the better songs on the record. Long conclusion that is interesting but the female vocalist's efforts could have been better realized had she really been allowed to open up.

I included Monkey Suit in my original post to this thread. But Doug,  speaking of Elton's buried/undecipherable vocals on some rock songs, this is a perfect example. To this day, I still cannot make out the lyrics in this song.

[Commodore Orpington]

If you're going to specify "rock", I'm going to narrow it down to Wake Up Wendy (favorite?), maybe Wicked Dreams, Hey Ahab, Noah's Ark. Otherwise you're just talking about songs in general because it's sort of a given that most are "rock" in the loose sense. If we're just talking about songs, LOTS of great ones post MIE.
----------------
EJ hasn't done that many out and out loud rock songs in the first place. Most are in the mid 70s.

[nix]

I don't know anymore what 'rock' is, but those are my top 10 uptempo songs after MIE:

1. If the River Can Bend ***** - brilliant gospel-rock song.

2. And the House Fell Down ***** - one of the best uptempo song Elton has done in career

3. Birds ***** - brilliant country-rock song

4. Hey Ahab ***** - powerful bluesy-rock song

5. January ****1/2 or ***** - creative, complex and brilliant song

5. Wake Up Wendy ****1/2 - yes, this one is really great... I always loved it

6. Across the River Thames ****1/2 - chorus is simply way too catchy... I love it!

7. England and America **** or ****1/2 - one of rare songs from WCN that I actually like. Melodically pretty much inspired.. it's like cross between 'Made in England' and 'River Thames' song.

8. A Little Peace ****1/2 - something different and interesting

9. 16th Century Man **** - really fine rocker

10. Couldn't Have Loved You More **** - unreleased but really good r'n'r song

[Commodore Orpington]

Just post MIE favorites? January, Dark Diamond, Mansfield, then more from SFTWC and Union.

[nix]

Jan 4, 2020 2:31:20 GMT Commodore Orpington said:

Just post MIE favorites? January, Dark Diamond, Mansfield, then more from SFTWC and Union.

You forgot 'Long Way From Happiness' - the most rocking song Elton made